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Childfree and Loving It! by Nicki Defago (2005)

Book review: Childfree and Loving It! by Nicki Defago (Fusion Press, 2005)

We live in a child-centred society. Women, no matter how high achieving in other areas, are pitied and patronised if they are childless, and condemned as selfish if this is by choice. However large numbers of women are enjoying their hard-won independence, and are reluctant to give it all up to become slaves to their children. And many men feel the same way.

Childfree and Loving It! is a broad, definitive exploration of non-parenthood, challenging the myths of parenthood and boldly proclaiming the joys of a childfree life. Nicki Defago explores population growth and the environment, workplace policies and consumerism, and interviews those who have chosen not to have children as well as the honest parents who wish they hadn’t.

If you have ever questioned the need for children or sighed with relief that you don’t have any – then this is the book for you.

When I walked past a PDSA charity shop some weeks ago I stopped to look at their books, which I always do if I happen to walk past. You see, outside they have some plastic boxes full of books, with a note saying “3 for £1” and what bookworm in their right mind can walk past an opportunity like that? That’s almost like someone standing on a street corner offering free drugs. Rummaging through one of those boxes I came across this book and had to get it.

Because, you see, it is a truth universally acknowledged that all females in their mid- to late twenties must be in want of a baby, and the thought that such a woman actually really doesn’t seems incredibly alien to most people. I’ve already had a rant on my personal blog about the presumptions people make about it, and why badgering women about babies is a very stupid and insensitive thing to do. Not everyone can have children, and for those who can’t but would have wanted to, I get upset on their behalf, because they’re likely to have it rubbed in their faces. A lot.

Anyway. In a recent survey, it was found that a lot of mums don’t necessarily find motherhood all that it’s cracked up to be. There was another study done, can’t remember the link, where they had measured people’s happiness, and it was found that childfree people were a lot happier in general than those with kids. Childfree and Loving It! delves deeper into both of these issues. To be perfectly honest, I can understand this, simply from looking at people around me. There are very good examples of “children aren’t a recipe for happiness” all around, but I won’t go into detail. Don’t need to anyway; you can probably think of a few yourself.

Nicki Defago has interviewed a lot of people, childfree and not, and this book tells of their experiences. While staying away from being judgemental it also goes into various reasons why women and men alike have chosen not to procreate. As a whole it’s not about looking down on people for choosing to have children (yes, it’s a choice, at least these days), because after all, if that’s what you want, it’s what you want. The book is saying “this is why I’m choosing not to have children”, not condemning people who have chosen to have them. Granted, the book is written as a support to those who choose not to have children, which should be taken into account. If you want a book that supports people who choose to have children, this ain’t it, put it that way.

All in all, I didn’t feel as if I’d learned something all that new from reading Childfree and Loving It!, because most of it were things I had already been thinking about. No major revelations there. The most interesting thing was instead to hear the stories from parents, and how many of them would have chosen not to have children if they could go back in time and do it all over again. This is regardless of their children’s behaviours and even though they all stated that they loved their kids with all their hearts and wouldn’t trade them for anything in the world. It’s just that if they knew then what they know now, they wouldn’t have taken that step. Which is fair enough, hindsight is 20-20.

The most surprising story was one of a woman who went through gruelling IVF treatments because she was desperate to have a baby, and when the long-awaited twins finally arrived in the world, she regretted it. But she couldn’t tell anyone – how could she? She who had been desperately wanting children for years and now that she finally has them, wishes she didn’t? Makes you think, doesn’t it?

If anything, the book has helped me remember the reasons why I have never wanted children. To say you don’t want children is still met with incredible stigma, by the way. From the patronising, “oh, you’ll grow up and change your mind eventually” (which my mum has said since I was about eight and first announced I didn’t want any) to sheer disbelief or the look of “wtf is wrong with you?” A lot of women have instead opted for saying that they can’t have any, because that at most results in brief pity (“poor thing, she can’t have babies”) and then the subject is dropped – rather than being continuously subjected to attempts at changing their minds. And yes, again, I’m (like most childfree-by-choice people) not judging people for having children. If you want them, go ahead, I really couldn’t care less, because what you choose to do with your life is really none of my business.

I just know that for my own sake I don’t want children, and even though I’ve been assured I would make a great mum if it came to it, I know I couldn’t cope with motherhood. Better that I know and acknowledge this beforehand than ending up on antidepressants with a baby to look after, right? “But surely you can’t know that until you’re in that situation!” Listen, I know what I’m like when I don’t get enough sleep (and I need a lot) – and I don’t just mean the recurring colds, I mean the seriously dark thoughts that eventually creep in – and if there’s one thing I’ve heard about being a parent, it means that you don’t get enough sleep.

We tried having a dog when I first moved over to the UK. It took a month or two, then he moved in permanently with my mother-in-law simply because I couldn’t cope, and it broke my heart. He went to my mum-in-law simply because none of us wanted him to have go back to the rescue. (There was a sick child in the family and the original owners couldn’t cope with looking after a dog as well, so they gave him up for rehoming.) Want reasons why I couldn’t cope with having a dog? He was around me all the time – I couldn’t even move across the room without him following me (yes, that’s an actual problem for me, I need alone time in order to function), and also, the noise. Now imagine a child (they make lots of noise), whom it would be a 24/7 job for me to look after for a fair few years. It would kill me. Literally. (No, I really don’t mean “figuratively” here.) And that’s no joke.

Do I hate babies and toddlers? No. I have a beautiful, non-denominational godson (almost two years old) whose hugs I adore; a cousin-in-law’s daughter (a couple of weeks younger than our godson) who’s so adorable you could eat her up (and get diabetes!); and the most recent addition to the clan is a gorgeous nephew (eight months) whose charming smile is incredibly infectious and can light up a room. When a work colleague brought in her four-week-old baby this spring, he was the most precious thing to behold. But it doesn’t mean I want one. I don’t even get broody, which (of course) people have assumed I do.

Never in my life have I felt broody about human babies. I didn’t even like playing with baby dolls when I was a little girl. In fact, I wasn’t particularly fond of children even when I was one myself. Not to say I’m not nurturing, because I have a cat for that. A cat who is quiet most of the time (and when she isn’t, it’s normally because she wants to check where you are, and when you meow back at her she stops and comes to say hello), who doesn’t have tantrums in supermarkets, who doesn’t need a college fund, who doesn’t need to be taken for walks, who is happy to either spend the day outside in the garden or asleep in another room and who couldn’t care less if you get up to get a book or something … unless she’s decided she wants a cuddle and has parked herself on your lap. Basically, my mum will have to live with her UK grandchild having four legs, a tail and whiskers. On the plus side, I’m happy to have more of those. But the only pitter-patter of tiny feet I want to hear at home … are the pitter-patter of tiny paws. (Brooding over kittens, oh hell yes, I do that!)

Getting back on topic: the biggest thing I’ve taken away from Childfree and Loving It! is that you should only have a child if you’re absolutely sure you want one. If you’re absolutely sure, then fine, that’s great. If you have any reservations or hesitations, you shouldn’t get one, because once you get one, it’s too late to change your mind. The book has lots of observations and lists a number of reasons why people choose not to have children, from environmental reasons (CO2), over-population and over-crowding to financial reasons and having time for each other as a couple. It tells the side of the story that most people never tell you when they’re busy waxing lyrical about their darling little tots and think everyone else should have a “bundle of joy” too. Reality is a little different. Being a parent isn’t a walk in the park, and parenthood should not be entered into lightly. It’s a commitment, for life. If you’re not prepared for what that entails, don’t do it. For the sake of the unborn child.

4.7 out of 5 spontaneous trips to Paris.

Traxy

An easily distracted and over-excited introvert who never learns to go to bed at a reasonable time. Enjoys traveling (when there's not a plague on), and taking photos of European architecture. Cares for cats, good coffee and Boardwalk Empire. A child of her time, she did media studies in school and still can't decide what she wants to be when she grows up.

18 thoughts on “Childfree and Loving It! by Nicki Defago (2005)

  1. I’m with you Trax! I’ve always known that I don’t want to have children. I’ve often been told that I’m weird, that something is wrong with me, or that I’ll change my mind because of it. So patronising! As it turns out I have PCOS so having children could be an ordeal anyway, but that really doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is the very people who are unnerved by my decision not to have children, constantly bitch and moan about their own!

  2. I’ve also chosen to be child-free, and it upsets me that lots of people assume I’m broody about it – or that my choice is because I don’t have a man in my life. It’s none of those. I’ve NEVER WANTED CHILDREN. The first time I declared I didn’t want kids, was when I was 6 years old – because, like you – at that age – CHILDREN DROVE ME NUTS! I couldn’t stand kids when I was a kid. They were noisy, rude and selfish – even if their parents were awesome and tried to instill basic human decency in them. I knew then that I didn’t have the patience for raising children, and as I grew I also knew I didn’t want to put my body through the hell of carrying a child and delivering it. I also do have the excuse though, that I’m technically not “supposed” to have kids. I have a genetic disorder I would pass on to my kids – and my doctors informed my Mom when I was a kid that I shouldn’t have children. I do not tell people about that though, because it ramps up the “pity” and I don’t want to be pitied. I guess I’m different in that I’d rather people think I was selfish (though I’m not) than pity me because I’m “obviously lying” about not wanting kids to “hide pain” that I can’t. Ugh. Gross. I just don’t want kids – much as I adore my friends’ babies – that’s all I need. Friends’ babies to play with and then give back to their parents. I much prefer my cats (I cannot handle the level of commitment a dog would take, no matter how much I love dogs), I get broody over kittehs too!

  3. Skully: I don’t understand why people get unnerved by a statement as “I don’t want kids” to begin with. What’s so unnerving about it? Do men ever get the same, I wonder? Unfair.

    I’ll get back to your comment later or tomorrow, kristi. Need to head off!

  4. The Childfree movement evokes mixed emotions in me.

    On the one hand: If someone doesn’t want kids, I really don’t think that they should have kids. I firmly believe that the world is messed up because too many people weren’t loved enough by their parents. I see parents snapping “shut up!” at their kids, and dragging them along, and ignoring a yearning heart who is begging for a hug, and it hurts me, because they are damaging their children.

    If you don’t like kids, why do you have kids? You know?

    So I support a movement that makes people feel like it’s okay to just NOT go down that path.

    On the other hand, some childfree people can be extremely judgmental BACK at the “breeders” like me, who find their kids an endless source of joy and delight. I love taking care of someone who needs and loves me. I love thinking about reading my children my favourite books, and answering their questions about the world. I have always been like that. I love pets because I love to care for and teach those who depend on me.

    There’s nothing wrong with that, either, and the Childfree people who rant about breeders and their sprogs as if we don’t have a right to exist, well… that angers me.

    But I definitely don’t think they should be having kids.

    There’s one other snag, though, to the Childfree movement:

    Mostly it’s SMART people who recognize that they don’t want to be parents and take steps to avoid it happening.

    The stupid people have unprotected sex anyway and end up with a horde of children that they don’t like.

    So the stupid people are breeding, and they’re messing up their kids while they’re at it.

    I feel like smart people who DO want kids ARE obligated to breed as much as possible, to balance the collective IQ of the world.

    My husband’s IQ is 160, and I’m trying to talk him into having three.

    We breed, so you don’t have to!

  5. kristi: We seem to have a fair few things in common! 🙂

    It’s funny, because one of the biggest things before as to why I didn’t want children was because the thought of being pregnant and giving birth really scared me. (I can’t say I’m afraid to lose my figure, because I’d need to actually have one first! ;)) Then I had a work colleague who was pregnant and who I talked to a lot and even went to her baby shower (the only woman in our department who went). Much thanks to her, many of my fears about pregnancy faded. Birth? Yeah, okay, I hate being in pain, so good gods I wouldn’t like that. But you know, it’s what you get at the end, and they can give you drugs and everything (although I’d be more interested in the hypnosis route actually), so I’d probably be okay.

    As it happens, if it was legal in Sweden, I wouldn’t mind being a surrogate for a very dear friend who can’t conceive because of a medical condition. So yes, I’ve come a far way. I still don’t want to have a baby to look after.

    Like I said in the post, it’s not that I lack a mothering or nurturing instinct … it’s just that when it comes to babies and children … I just feel awkward. Whenever there’s a new baby about, s/he always gets passed around and if someone asks if I want to hold him/her, I never feel an urge to. But then I also feel that it invades the baby’s personal space too much to be passed around a bunch of strangers like a parcel.

    With our godson, for instance, I haven’t held him until recently, when he’s been old enough to signal to me that he actually wants me to pick him up. He’ll open up his little arms toward me and I’ll happily carry him around and give him hugs, because it’s on his own terms. I love doing that as well, but I still don’t feel like I want to have my own full-time cuddle factory, cute as they may be. Like you say, I’m happy to hand him back to his parents.

  6. kristi (had to split the comment, it was too long!): With genetic disorders, I can at least begin to understand what you mean. Okay, yes, your problem and mine can’t actually compare at all, because you have something that can cause you actual health problems, and mine … well, only psychological, really. I haven’t had a doctor tell me I shouldn’t have kids because of it, but I technically have something apparently classed as a “congenital defect” (great confidence booster finding that one out, I tell ya) and while it can be corrected with surgery, that’s a huge step to take. Most people would just say “oh FFS get over yourself, you’re being silly and vain” which is why I can’t even bring myself to discuss it with a doctor, because it’s not a “real” problem and I don’t want to trouble them, because I’m not ill. Sure, I haven’t had an ounce of self-confidence since I got into puberty and it makes me very depressed to think about it, but … still. A daughter (or son) might not even get it and if she did, she might not even be bothered by it – some people aren’t. But yeah. There’s also plenty of cancer in this gene pool so if we don’t get it ourselves, odds are the next generation will.

    On a lighter note, yes, dogs are a big commitment. They’re probably more reminiscent of having children than having cats are. Dogs depend on you for everything, because after all, you’re the pack leader, and I’m SO not an alpha female! Cats just do their own thing most of the time, which is why some people aren’t exactly crazy about them. Mum-in-law normally says she’d never do anything to harm a cat, but she doesn’t really get along with them and she’s a dog person through and through. Dogs are hard work. Not only do they need plenty of exercise, but there are so many “mind games” you have to master (like “always show them who’s boss”) that it’s exhausting! I just want a cuddle! 🙂 I’d love to have more cats. Hubby wouldn’t allow it where we lived before because the house was so small, but now we have a much bigger house. Problem is that Daisy’s very territorial so she probably wouldn’t be too thrilled about having company. 😉

  7. @Traxy – not trying to convince you to have kids or anything (doesn’t matter to me!) but I feel that same awkwardness around other people’s children. I don’t have it with my own. Cause he’s MINE OMNOM. :-p

  8. ifbyyes: I agree with you. Every time I see a child crying and being told to shut up by a frustrated mum on the bus, I just want to say “look, I know you’re tired and I honestly can’t begin to guess what your day has been like, but how about giving your child a hug instead?” Patience gets lost when kids are acting up, but sometimes it feels as if parents are over-reacting a lot, getting angry about nothing. There’s so much going on today that parents have very little time for their children, and that’s another reason why I hesitate.

    When we were growing up, my mum started up her own business, and that has always taken up lots of her time. I love my mum to bits and we’ve always got along very well, but in recent years I have come to realise that what I really could’ve done with while growing up was for her to be there. Not just as a shoulder to cry on when needed or the one who made me porridge for breakfast, but there is so much more than that. We hardly saw each other after school, as she didn’t come home until gone 6:30 at night, when we’d have dinner (usually prepared by one of my sisters), and until I was about 12, I had to be in bed by 9. That didn’t leave a lot of time for socialising. Sure, my sisters and I learned to be independent, which is something I really value today, but I’m thinking maybe we learned it the hard way. :/ Dad finished work at 4, so he could be home earlier, but he’s definitely an introvert too and has never been much of a conversationalist to boot. Still, it was nice to at least have him around, even if he kept hogging the TV remote to read the news on teletext! 😉

    If there’s something I feel strongly about now, it’s that you should have time for your kids. There are examples around me at the moment where I’m seriously questioning the parents’ parenting methods as it seems as they’re giving most of the attention to ONE child so the others get ignored. I could be completely wrong about it, but if they really are, then I want to take the other ones, one at a time, on a day out and lavish all my attention on just that one child to make them feel appreciated and heard. If I had a child and had the opportunity and it would be financially feasible, I’d love to be able to be a stay-at-home mum. (Hrm, perhaps should be noted that this is more down to me not thriving in office environments – I’d much prefer working from home every single day if my boss would let me, which he wouldn’t – than a particular longing to have a child around me all day long.) I’d bake cookies and all sorts. Admittedly, if we had a child, Christmas preparations would feel more worth it then they do now, when it’s just done for the sake of “I wuv the season to be jolly”, when you can just get to the point of “actually, I don’t HAVE to do this if it’s just for us two … sod it”. If there was someone else who found it just as magical, it would be an incentive to really do things properly. But again, this is not a valid reason to bring a new person into the world. A child is not just for Christmas, after all!

    There is absolutely certain appeals in having children, other than holiday celebrations, such as lots of hugs (I’m SUCH a sucker for hugs) and reading them books. Mum used to read to me in bed when we went on caravanning holidays in the summer and I loved that. Can’t remember much of the book(s) we went through, but the thing I cherish now was the time together. Imagine when the child would be old enough to appreciate Harry Potter! 😀

  9. ifbyyes: As far as I see it, people can have as many kids as they like, provided they have enough time, love and money for all of them. There are people who get pregnant constantly because of the benefits they get from the state, which is dreadful. They don’t really give a damn about their kids, they just want the cash they bring in for existing! It’s frightening to think that a country can devolve from Mr. Darcy to chav/wigger in not that long a time frame. Not just the UK, all over the place! Kids today who roam the streets and start looting because they’re bored and don’t know what else to do. NEVER had that problem growing up. There was always a new book waiting to be read, as far as I was concerned.

    If you’ve got love and time and money enough to bring up a dozen kids who are well-behaved and turn out to be fine, upstanding citizens – good on you! You’re a little bit bonkers to have THAT many, but hats off to you for pulling it off, I say! 🙂 I’m only bothered about people having many children when they’re not being cared for properly and when they keep misbehaving when they’re out and about. And speaking of which, even if there’s only one, they still need to be controlled, and far too many parents brush off their child’s misbehaviour as “haha, aww, isn’t that cute?” (when little Timmy has just smeared cake all over the sofa) or “oh but she’s only five, she doesn’t understand any better” (when their little princess has repeatedly pulled the dog’s tail). :/

    You’re considerate and loving and from what I’ve read on your blog, you’re great parents now and you’ll be excellent in the future. The world needs more of you and less of the people that make up the guest lists of Jerry Springer or Jeremy Kyle! Hubby and I like to think we’d produce very intelligent and handsome enough children if we did go down that route, but somehow “trying to balance out all the stupid people who breed when they really shouldn’t be allowed to” doesn’t really sound like a valid reason to have a baby either. But you know, feel free to have the ones we won’t be having. 😉

    Just saw your new comment, and yes, there’s an expression in Swedish: “egna barn och andras ungar” which basically means “your children and other people’s kids”. It IS different if they’re your own. 🙂

  10. I agree with you 100%

    People SHOULD make time for their kids, and it drives me crazy how many people don’t appreciate their kids or don’t make time for them.

    I’m the kind of person who sees people like that, and it makes me want kids MORE, so I can show them HOW TO DO IT RIGHT!

    All my life I have dreamed of reading to my kids, playing with them, answering their questions. I can’t imagine giving that up – but if someone DOESN’T like the idea of giving their time to their kids… yeah, they shouldn’t have kids.

    But like I say, often the smart, responsible ones are the ones who decide not to… and the world is filling with the progeny of The Other Sort.

    When PH and I used to experience some extra special stupid, at work or just out and about, he would turn to me and say “WE NEED TO BREED!”

    As for why people seem so shocked and unnerved when you say you don’t want kids? I think it’s the same reason people look shocked and dismayed when I tell them that I don’t like ice cream.

    They’re like, “how can you not like ICE CREAM?” and it blows their mind.

    Having Babby is SO much fun all the time – it’s like falling in love every day, like when you are in the start of a new relationship and everything is just rainbows and unicorns whenever you look at them. It’s just SO awesome.

    But some people think ice cream is awesome.

    And I really don’t.

    It takes all kinds, and I would never force someone who didn’t like ice cream to eat it, just to validate my own choices. You know?

    1. Hah, good way of putting it. 🙂 And yeah, have to admit to liking ice cream, but yeah, I wouldn’t force someone to have it if they didn’t want to. (We once bought ice cream we thought was just plain vanilla ice cream. It wasn’t. It had no flavour at all, aside from being frozen – I mean, WHY would you make such a thing?! That’s like having pizza without cheese, completely ruins it.)

      It’s a similar thing with chocolate. There are people out there who don’t like that either, which is met with skepticism and incredulity – while saying you don’t like liquorice is perfectly acceptable. (It has to be salty liquorice for me, the sweet stuff is foul!)

      I can also very much sympathise with the whole wanting to show them how to do it properly and having several “well, if it WE were X’s parents, we would/wouldn’t…” discussions with hubby. So yeah, I think we’d do an okay job of it, should it happen, hearts and minds in the right place and all that.

      Although, if we are to go by the empirical evidence thus far, parenting doesn’t appear to be something that’s likely to happen anyway. Not that I’m complaining. It’s just another symptom of something I’ll be talking to my GP about tomorrow …

  11. Wow you seemed to have sparked quite a discussion here!

    I think it’s all pretty straightforward, it’s assumed that all women are naturally endowed with the instinct to have children – so women who openly say they don’t want to have children are viewed as having something wrong with them, because their supposed biological imperative hasn’t kicked in. Men aren’t assumed to have this instinct to the degree that women have, so their choices aren’t scrutinised in the same way.

    I suspect some mothers are unnerved by my choice not to have children because they never stopped to think about whether it was something they actually wanted to do. They assumed they wanted it because society constantly tells them they do. My choice represents possibilities they never considered. While they probably would have chosen to have children away, I do feel their resentment towards my freedom.

    In my experience I’ve found that mothers who more readily acknowledge the challenges of parenting are much more supportive of my choice. They also feel more comfortable talking to me about their challenges, as they feel I don’t judge them for it like some mothers do.

    1. Apparently so! (And it’s the first time I’ve ever been emailed with comments, as opposed to just reading them here. But the comment I got was down to the person mis-remembering a statement in a previous blog post. Still, an interesting exchange.)

      I think you’re absolutely right about the reasoning, and if I remember correctly, the whole “never thought there was an option NOT to” as a reason for resentment is mentioned in the book. Can’t say I understand the “oh, there’s a CHOICE?” opinion very much, but there you go.

      That the ones who acknowledge that parenting is not just fun and games are more supportive … I can see why. The other ones have probably not admitted it to themselves yet … and are bitter about it.

  12. There’s a line from a song by Harvey Danger’s ‘Only stupid people are breeding the cretins cloning and feeding’which is addressed by ifbyyes above.
    I didn’t want kids until I was about 32 then I changed my mind. I did think it would never happen but eventually I fell. I have one daughter who is now nearly 8 but I’m not with her father anymore. Some days she’s an utter delight and others it can be a nightmare but I’m always glad I had her and find her inquisitive nature makes me reinvestigate things I’ve taken for granted in the past.
    No one should feel guilty for not wanting kids and they shouldn’t lose out but kids are our future even if some of them are totally blinking annoying.

    1. No doubt they can be great fun AND pains in the backside too. If more parents were as honest and you, maybe people who don’t fancy it for themselves wouldn’t get as hard a time. 🙂

  13. It’s been a while since I commented on this post (it’s kinda fallen by the wayside until today), and since then, not long after this post was made, my folks were over and I said to mum that her grandchild has four paws and a fluffy tail, and that I’ll happily get more of those, but that there won’t be any of the two-footed variety. Woah did she take it well, not so much.

    “I don’t want to have kids.”
    “Why?”
    “Err, there are quite a few reasons.”
    “Such as?”
    (I name a reason)
    “That’s not a valid reason. What else?”

    and so on. It was as if I had done something really bad and was interrogated about it. It really annoyed me at the time, because it’s not her decision to make, and I sure as hell am not having children for the sole purpose of giving my mother grandchildren. She’s not the one that would have to look after them, and considering we live in two different countries, she wouldn’t see much of ’em anyway, to be honest.

    When I discussed the exchange with one of my (two) sisters later, apparently mum had admitted being a bit too harsh about it, and realised that it indeed isn’t her choice to make. She’s just frustrated about not having grandkids and apparently saw me as the “last resort” (I’m the youngest) and when I said it ain’t happening, well … she didn’t take it very well.

    But then again, considering the state of medical affairs where I’m concerned, whether or not I want kids might or might not be a moot point, at least the way things are at the moment.

    1. The best answer to the “why don’t you want kids?” question is simply: I just don’t. If they keep asking why, they have a serious comprehension problem at their end and probably need to take reading lessons from their kids.

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